You Can’t Bring The Future Back*
Two Fingers f/ Ms. Jade – “Doing My Job“
Two Fingers f/ Sway – “Not Perfect“
from Two Fingers (Big Dada, 2009)
Hand me a late pass on Two Fingers, a UK based production team consisting of minor avant drum n’ bass legend Amon Tobin and his virtually unknown pal Doubleclick doing their best Timbaland impression. Their album dropped months ago but only appeared on my radar recently when I was at the bottom of a Timbaland tangent. You see, more often than not the dreaded Timbaland tangent ends with the question of “what ever happened to Ms. Jade?” It turns out Two Fingers happened, enlisting her for two tracks on the album.
So here we are, thirteen years after Timbaland broke onto radio with “Pony,” placing him right on the point of the timeline where nostalgic outsiders pick up on trends and run with them. Now British are producers trying to revive that old Timbo sound, reaching back to him in authentically in degrees through collabs with his near-been protege as if she was Lyn Collins or Terry Callier. St-st-st-stuttering space-hop is the new rare groove and I’m officially old. Next thing you know a reunited 1 Life 2 Live** will have booked a week at the Jazz Cafe.
But but but wait it gets better. Like Ms. Jade herself, Two Fingers are actually pretty good at what they do. Timb’s current influence in overground trends extends only as far as his recent output, which means most of his classic creeping staccato chirp stuff has fell to the wayside in favor of big synths and throwback 80s moves. The few indie (sorry) artists that draw on his work have either shifted his populist impulses outward (in the case of shining happy hipster bait like MIA) or stripped them completely (all the masturbatory wonky kids who incidentally owe about as much to Tobin and the Ninja Tune camp as they do Timb and the Tunes). People seem to forget just how evil early Timbaland sound. He was basically making goth radio hits back in the day.
TF picks up on that in a way none of his twenty first century stateside successors have, sprinkling his sound with just enough arbitrary digital detritus sprinkled about to assure Tobin’s typical adventurous listener fanbase that they aren’t actually listening to pop music. Sway, a once buzzed grime UK rapper from when people still buzzed about grime UK rap, is responsible for the bulk of the rhyming here and he does a decent enough job despite his unfortunate case of being born with a British accent.*** The late, great Tommy B weighed in on the record over at Pitchfork when it first dropped, and pretty much nails it.**** Quoth the Breihan: “it’s a weird nostalgic rush, like finding an old sci-fi pulp novel and marveling about how its visions of the future were so much cooler than how the future actually turned out.”
And that’s the thing about Timbaland. He is one of a but few electronic music producers – Kraftwerk, Aphex Twin – who have been able to make futuristic music that hasn’t aged as time caught up with its intentions. Most of these acts were so goddamn unique that even their immediate peers were unable come close to their brilliance or style, let alone worshippers decades removed. Timbaland is different in that his sound always been on some Mastermind shit – easy to learn, difficult to master. People aping him thirteen years later *still* sound like thirteen years ahead of themselves and thirteen years behind him.
All this math is further muddled by the fact that Tobin is technically a peer, if not a predecessor, of Timb’s, though he was operating in a completely different genre.***** And further muddling that muddle is the fact that Timbalands future music has more recently lead him to his own nostalgic experiments. In the 80s, no less – a past that was obsessed with the future. So Timb himself is working with a futuristic past while present day artists adapt his past future and we’re in a bad Quantum Leap episode. The one where Sam goes back into the body of Kurtis Mantronix and has to rescue MC Tee from a malfunctioning drum machine.
Two Finger’s myspace announces somewhat cryptically that “Two Fingers is now moving into Phase II: production for other artists.” It might be interesting if some of those beat tapes were to find their way across the pond. Or it might cause the universe to collapse.
* You thought this was another Jay-Z post, but I tricked you, I tricked you.
** Did anybody ever hear their unreleased album? I remember it was supposed to have a song with Goodie Mob which could have been good but more likely sounded like that time they challenged TLC to a game of ghetto laser tag. Weirdly enough I once saw an instrumental promo on 2xLP but I didn’t buy it, which I sort of regret. But I can’t imagine their non-Timbaland beats were at all worthwhile. The second Timbo beat in that video is pretty great. And there is something intriguing about an overweight female rapper who would be so bold as to name herself after a mythological ox.
*** Rapping with a British accent is close to the musical equivalent to kickboxing with no legs.
**** Pitchfork should really implement a writer-specific RSS so I can read Breihan and David Drake write about rap without fear of accidentally stumbling into an Ian Cohen review.
***** When Timb first became a household name there was quite a fuss****** made about how he was borrowing from Dn’B. I never really heard it. But if he was, we can now see that it was obviously a two way street.
****** See now I am writing British.
September 1st, 2009 at 10:56 pm
Timbaland influence on UK club music is an old story. UK Garage producers were “reviving” Timbaland by 1998. see all the UKG remixes of tracks Tim produced for Aaliyah, Missy (Steve Gurley did a great refix of “Hot Boyz”), etc. as well as his general influence, esp. rhythmically – clattering snares, complex kick patterns with double & triple hits, etc. Tim did pick up a lot of that stuff from jungle tho, bit of a back & forth.
also; Sway was never really grime, he falls more into that sad nether region known as “UK Hip Hop”, I doubt you listen to enough of what’s lumped into “wonky” to start calling it names, & I think a ton of jungle – old 4 Hero, Remarc, loads of tunes – still sounds like the future, or a future that never happened, but that’s just me. I think the same thing about mid-90s RZA.
September 1st, 2009 at 11:02 pm
All of the “wonky” I have heard is masturbatory. If there is wonky that isn’t masturbatory then it’s obviously not indicted in my statement.
September 1st, 2009 at 11:09 pm
i remember hearing ‘what you know’ with sway ages ago, but i totally slept on the album. the ms jade joint is hot!
September 1st, 2009 at 11:14 pm
At least the cover looks good.
September 1st, 2009 at 11:45 pm
“*** Rapping with a British accent is something close to the musical equivalent to kickboxing with no legs.”
my limited exposure to brits in media always gave me the impression that they have such a hard time not sounding polite. kind of like when christian bale let loose on the set for terminator but was mostly apologetic
September 1st, 2009 at 11:50 pm
Yo ‘what it ain’t’ is great, stop trippin
September 2nd, 2009 at 12:00 am
“Tim did pick up a lot of that stuff from jungle tho, bit of a back & forth.”
this is still a hard sell for me. what evidence is there other than wishful thinking from brit music crits? timbo denied it, & id say theres plenty of examples of syncopation in like miami bass & etc.
September 2nd, 2009 at 1:17 am
I wanted to love this album but for some reason it’s actually less fun to listen to than its own 7-minute megamix that I bumped constantly in, what, 2007? Still not bad though.
I’m beginning to think I don’t belong on this site given that I was looking forward to TF as a return to form for Tobin, and only after picking it up realized “Oh huh, Ms. Jade is on the shit”. But I guess that’s why you do the writing and I do the reading around here.
By the way you do need a copy editor lately.
September 2nd, 2009 at 1:43 am
they all take from dancehall reggae
September 2nd, 2009 at 2:40 am
^^^yeah that too … i mean dnb/jungle wore its JA influences on its sleeve, but american rap has always had a much stronger dialogue w/ JA music than it does UK music
September 2nd, 2009 at 6:04 am
I don’t know who Ms. Jade is, but this shit does not represent Amon Tobin well in any way. Very Timbaland-ish indeed.
This Is Amon Tobin :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8SDfOdfAvs
Give the song 3 minutes to kick in.
(4 give me if adding links is prohibited)
September 2nd, 2009 at 6:57 am
And so begins the Magoo revival…
September 2nd, 2009 at 8:08 am
theres plenty of examples of syncopation in like miami bass & etc
syncopation, sure. syncopation is a key feature of just all about modern dance music from funk on up. but none of that stuff has anywhere near the intricacy of the drum programming, the chopped & re-edited vox (re: that discussion awhile back about chipmunked soul, also ghostly diva vocals – tons of jungle tunes make use of accapellas from Toni Braxton, Sade, various house divas), all this. I’m not saying dude heard an Omni Trio 12″ & was like “damn! that’s what I need to do” – just that it was, yunno, an influence, in the air – you’re telling me an eclectic cutting-edge producer of black dance music in the mid-90s wouldn’t have had at least a passing familiarity with jungle? as far as Tim confirming or denying his various “influences” I dunno if man has, ahem, the best track record there. tho having said all that it doesn’t really matter what anyone believes or doesn’t. I probably overstated the Tim influence on UKG too – Todd Edwards is way more important there, for example.
September 2nd, 2009 at 9:04 am
“In an ‘04 interview with Timbaland, the man who helped craft JT’s FutureSex/LoveSounds mentioned that he’d been rockin’ a disc in his car by a band called Black Dice—and that it was, quite simply, “freaky shit.” “
September 2nd, 2009 at 9:57 am
Big Dada, i believe, is Warps rap label. They mostly release U.K. records but also did MF Dooms King Geedorah record. Big Dada is a real British view of rap, as left field as possible, while retaining certain garage elements. Rap in the U.K. has really never left the clubs, as can be ascertained with the dubstep references in these tracks. On a side note, why are brits so obsessed with music labels? What the hell is U.K. Funky?
September 2nd, 2009 at 9:58 am
“syncopation, sure. syncopation is a key feature of just all about modern dance music from funk on up. but none of that stuff has anywhere near the intricacy of the drum programming, the chopped & re-edited vox ”
(Miami, 1989)
With stuff like Ladi Luv or Success-N-Effect or Mantronix edits and it’s easy to understand how producers on both sides of the pond ended up at similar points, but it is just not a two way street. I don’t think I have ever met or heard of an american hip hop producer or fan with even the slightest interest in uk dance music. (Not counting Andre 3000’s Squarepusher worship or dnb kids who got into rap through Dr. Octagon or whatever.)
I suspect Timbaland was drawing heavily on go-go rhythms too, given his location. There’s another thing that held influence on both VA and the UK in the 80s.
September 2nd, 2009 at 10:01 am
Baz – Big Dada is a Ninja Tune sublabel. You might be confusing them with Lex, which was once Warp’s hip hop arm before recently breaking off.
September 2nd, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Padraig-
You said this before and I let it slide because I sorta moved the discussion out of where it should’ve been but dude, you’re just wrong on this.
There’s plenty of regional dance/hip-hop production that’s just as nutty as the UK stuff. It isn’t always on compilations or easy to download or even find, but it’s there. I grabbed the nearest stack of Club records and looked, oh–”Puff Alotta Weed” by K-Life, not as sophisticated as Noz’s example but tripped-up vocals chopped all weird and shit.
Re: Timbo and the UK
Plenty of UK stuff of the late 80s too, will vomit out some Go-Go sample or something amongst the 20 other sounds in there, so yeah….
Timbo though, I’m pretty sure knew about that UK stuff in the 90s–don’t forget how relatively accessible it was then–and heard the proto-Jungle, UK hard-Hip House if not directly than from Baltimore stuff which does cite UK explicitly. Baltimore Club (like Go-Go) was certainly in VA too, Pharrell’s mentioned it, I’ve talked to VA DJs who mentioned it too. Shit, at my job yesterday I just bought in 1,200 UK, Baltimore, Go Go, and Chicago House records from a old DJ out of Durham, NC (collection spanned say 78-92).
DJ Timmy Tim, if he was anything like a lot of other DJs, had plenty of UK shit and then mixed and matched it with all the American hip-hop (just like the UK-ers did) to make stuff that Jungle-ish or whatever we want to call it–that Timbo sound.
September 2nd, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Noz – Ah yes, I am getting those labels mixed up.
These labels seem to be very U.K. centric these days. I remember when Sole Sides signed with Ninja Tune and ended up on their Xen Cuts collection, I thought we would start to see an influx of American rap into the U.K. scene but alas it seems to be coming the opposite way. It’s a pity, because no one does d.i.y. labels like the brits.
September 2nd, 2009 at 2:30 pm
well I suppose we’ll just have to degree to disagree then. you guys clearly waaay more about rap than I do & I know a shit-ton more about jungle & it’s various descendants than you guys do, so hey. we’re all genre nerds & there’s nothing wrong w/that.
the vox edit stuff definitely has roots in Mantronix & the Latin Rascals & so on. the diva & chipmunk business isn’t unique to jungle. actually I’d concede everything but the drum programming. and the sub-bass but that’s straight out of dub & soundsystems & the like. the connections are more between UK & US dance music (which is largely ignored by/has a different audience than rap) – 4 Hero & Underground Resistance, for example.
Andre 3000 liking Squarepusher – who is like the d&b equivalent of High & Mighty – is just further proof of rappers’ horrendous tastes in music other than rap.
September 2nd, 2009 at 2:32 pm
oh & Brandon’s also dead right about the common origins in the late 80s, rap on the one hand & house on the other. I always say this but tons of junglists started out as either b-boys, house DJs or on reggae soundsystems. or sometimes all 3, as in the case of DJ Hype.
September 2nd, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Don’t forget Chicago House and it’s influence on American producers, especially Acid House. Listen to a few Aaliyah tracks and you will hearing that rolling 303 in the background. That is pure Dj Pierre, a true American sound. I think Timbalands influence lie before the emergence of UK jungle. While Chicago House was not as popular in the mainstream in the US as in the UK, it was definitiely felt from Chicago to Detroit to New York to even Miami, as evidenced by track Noz posted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEF_-IcnQC4
September 2nd, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Someone email DJ Magic Mike and find out how many UK recs are in his collection. Baltimore club is one obvious point of connect between USA scenes and UK influence… & other similar stuff///ghetto-house etc
September 2nd, 2009 at 2:49 pm
*TF picks up on that in a way none of his twenty first century stateside successors have, sprinkling his sound with just enough arbitrary digital detritus sprinkled about to assure Tobin’s typical adventurous listener fanbase that they aren’t actually listening to pop music.*
I find this sentence kind of hard to swallow. Those people you refer to sounds like the people who go to concerts because it is the “place to be”. I don’t think Tobin has ever catered to that crowd, this is club music for club people, not for know-it-alls.
and btw I had to quit my boxing club and started kickboxing, and I can tell you that kickboxing without legs works perfectly, as long as you know how to punch :P
Thanks for a good essay , though.
September 2nd, 2009 at 3:13 pm
tims track record about admitting influences isnt the best. yeah hell admit to liking black dice but then theres not a load of critics saying that such and such record of his sounds like black dice so theres prob no need for him to act like he didnt hear it in fear of being called derivative (not that timbaland ever made jungle or anything, i love what he did with it in hip hop and r&b, or at least what i believe and several others believe he did with it). but its a tired argument at this point, even if there was one old photek record that to me sounded a lot like the rhythm of missys get your freak on. considering timbaland shopped for all sorts of arabic and indian music, i wouldnt be at all surprised if he was up on loads of drum n bass and uk garage too (and yes the relationship is one way, with uk producers being inspired by what he did with jungle influences too). considering timbaland was the guy who really made a big thing of looking WAY outside the usual soul/jazz/funk etc crates, i dont see why its such a big reach for american hip hop fans to admit or at least consider that he might have been into drum n bass too.
good article anyway, though how you decided to post about THESE guys and seem to think everyone else doing much more interesting, and original music than anyone from either grime or dubstep is a bit bizarre. grime producers for most of the 00s>>>>US hip hop producers in the 00s.
September 2nd, 2009 at 3:14 pm
*isnt one way
September 2nd, 2009 at 3:15 pm
oops. i meant to write:
good article anyway, though how you decided to post about THESE guys and seem to think theyre doing much more interesting, and original music than anyone from either grime or dubstep is a bit bizarre. grime producers for most of the 00s>>>>US hip hop producers in the 00s.
September 2nd, 2009 at 5:24 pm
“i dont see why its such a big reach for american hip hop fans to admit or at least consider that he might have been into drum n bass too.”
because there’s a huge UK-centric critical bias invested in making it seem like dnb had a bigger impact than its obvious life-changing status for dj shadow-looking americans in camo pants
September 2nd, 2009 at 5:25 pm
the other thing of course is that, imho, tim doesnt actually sound very much like d and b at all … if anything, his was a rejection of the breakbeat while dnb is speeding it up, breaking it down …. timbo threw it out altogether
September 2nd, 2009 at 5:26 pm
“grime producers for most of the 00s>>>>US hip hop producers in the 00s.”
can u please restrict these ridiculous CHALLENGING OPINIONS to dissensus kthnx
September 2nd, 2009 at 5:33 pm
“My limited exposure to brits in media always gave me the impression that they have such a hard time not sounding polite.”
Oh, come on. What are you watching? Hugh Grant movies?
Influence tracing is part of loving music, but let’s not link aesthetics of music to cultural attributes about which we know *nothing at all.*
September 2nd, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Well David, its a very crude way of putting it but at the same time, The only rap beats I really enjoy the last couple of years ( I can’t remember what the fuck happened 9 years ago so lets just say the last couple of years give or take) are beats where the equipment kind of fucks up the possibility of those beats being perfected. Examples , a lot of Houston shit ( mostly Z-ro and Abn shit) and Dirty from Alabama (most slept on ever IMO). Interestingly, though, when these artists were elevated from underground status and budgets, I think the beats they picked lacked some nerve or emotion which existed in the previous ones.
However , in the UK, two albums completed or created a musical movement which comes from a beat “landscape” of music, and also perfected them : Dizzee’s boy in the corner, and Burial’s untrue.
Its so strange to me that these albums can’t be enjoyed by most Americans with a thourough knowledge and love for this kind of music, it perplexes me beyond my imaginations , but I don’t hold it against anyone , by all means. But to me they hold the same quality as Outkast’s ATLiens, an album you can’t say anything about, which is very rare within the genres which I grew up on and love.
To me it is not interesting to discuss who is “best” right now, its not a competition, but I would like to see more americans opening up to some of the stuff going in the UK because I think it would give you some great new albums to bump.
September 2nd, 2009 at 5:51 pm
“Squarepusher – who is like the d&b equivalent of High & Mighty”
That’s not fair. He’s closer to the dnb Mikah 9.
“good article anyway, though how you decided to post about THESE guys and seem to think everyone else doing much more interesting, and original music than anyone from either grime or dubstep is a bit bizarre.”
I don’t think I made much of a value call on this album beyond calling it “pretty good.” It’s mostly notable because it explicitly draws a line back to Timbaland through the involvement of Ms. Jade. And because I liked Bricolage when I was 15 and when I saw Tobin’s name attached to this i was like “huh?”
September 2nd, 2009 at 6:20 pm
dubstep fanboys are like my least favorite music heads on earth right now to talk about music with
its the sound of the future!!! omfg
September 2nd, 2009 at 6:30 pm
comparing atliens & untrue is insane.
i’m not a big fan of squarepusher but “do you know suarepusher” is a great song.
September 2nd, 2009 at 6:33 pm
If I’m one of the people you’re referring to,
1: I don’t like much dupstep
2: Nothing sounds like “the future”, unless by the quote you mean it sounds like it will have a massive influence on music.
3: None of the albums I listed are “dubstep”.
There are only two artists I consider “futuristic” and those are of no interest to people on this blog, namely Venetian Snares and Autechre, which I listen to about 5 minutes each year before I vomit and put on some Jhonny Cash instead
September 2nd, 2009 at 6:44 pm
I don’t see why comparing ATLiens and Untrue is insane, they are both complete albums in my book. I’ve owned 4 copys of ATLiens strictly because I wear them out one way or another. Maybe its a Europe thing with Burial, I dunno, I just really can’t grasp why its like that. Its not a problem for me at all, its a puzzle.
but each one to their own, I guess.
September 2nd, 2009 at 10:08 pm
This thread is pathetic. Even letting D&B in the conversation is pathetic.
September 2nd, 2009 at 10:31 pm
American rap heads are the most solipsistic dudes ever. seriously. roll my eyes at the supposed enormous conspiracy of aging British music critics.
@Noz – Squarepusher epitomizes, to use your word, “masturbatory”. which I never thought was true of that Project Blowed scene, tho you’re the expert there.
September 2nd, 2009 at 11:01 pm
Mmmm… this is not even good for rank imitation. The torch has been passed by Tim to guy producing The Dream’s albums
(Tricky.. not the UK one)… Really squiggly synth lines.. bubbling basses. etc. Grime was quite exciting when they were confined to fruity loops and the the styrus synth.. now the BPM has slowed and hearing UK youth yap about “the trap” over D-Grade dipset adoration is not going to cut it.
I think Tim’s last truly great work was on Brandy’s criminally slept on Afrodisphiac album. His work on Jay-Z’s latest is yawn inducing.
September 3rd, 2009 at 12:07 am
“American rap heads are the most solipsistic dudes ever. seriously.”
Not really man. We are just telling you that nobody in america particularly cares for british music aside from Coldplay etc.
“@Noz – Squarepusher epitomizes, to use your word, “masturbatory”. which I never thought was true of that Project Blowed scene, tho you’re the expert there.”
It was at times. And like Squarepusher they LOVED jazz.
September 3rd, 2009 at 1:03 am
yo noz… dont get caught up in the genre-bending psychobabble… ppl too uptight and traditionalistic… thnx for puttin me on to this… sounds interesting
September 3rd, 2009 at 1:47 am
dunno why british people care so much about what amercians think frankly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGQ-gALRJ14
if they want to pretend miami bass is better than this its their perogative innit….
September 3rd, 2009 at 2:09 am
This is a discussion of influence, not preference.
September 3rd, 2009 at 2:48 am
oh man, harsh words for British rappers (not that I defend em either)!
so what would you say about Australian-accented rap? it’s pretty grating, and it doesn’t have the slight advantage that Brits have of sounding like you’ll be offered tea and scones at any minute of the song.
September 3rd, 2009 at 4:41 am
this is what rappers think of british music:
“Eight million stories got me runnin in place, it’s gettin tricky
(like who?) like dude, that do drum’n'bass”
September 3rd, 2009 at 8:36 am
i remember thinking timbaland had at least been influenced by drum & bass. he said he’d never heard of it before, but the parallels in the rhythms of tracks like “get ya freak on” and some of the breakbeat usage in older dnb are there. oh well.
big up two fingers though.
September 3rd, 2009 at 9:18 am
‘get ur freak on’ is clearly bhangra not dnb
September 3rd, 2009 at 12:04 pm
its not even bhangra. youre using bhangra as a name for anything vaguely south asian sounding. im talking about the rhythm of the actual drum programming. if i find that old photek cd ill post the title so you guys can compare (no doubt youll hear nothing).
“the other thing of course is that, imho, tim doesnt actually sound very much like d and b at all … if anything, his was a rejection of the breakbeat while dnb is speeding it up, breaking it down …. timbo threw it out altogether”
its not about whether tim used breakbeats or not. you can be dnb influenced without reaching for the amen break (see: uk garage). its about the actual programming patterns.
but anyway, i suppose its too much for you inward looking americans to admit that anyone in hip hop listens to or -shock horror – likes british black/urban music. the audience might have not much time for it, thats obvious (apart from the stuff that can pass for american) but the artists – across the board – are usually a bit more open minded. i know its a bit ‘lol’ at this point but timbaland did obviously like mia before she was picked up by interscope. ugk and the grit boys have worked with dizzee (and lil jon and e40 both said they like what he does). and going a bit further back, redman must have liked something about roni size to collab with them on his own album.
but i sense im talking to ppl with deaf/arrogant ears. even though were talking about fucking TIMBALAND, whos always had much more catholic tastes than your average hip hop producer (for better/worse).
September 3rd, 2009 at 7:35 pm
please post one example of timbo drum patterns reflecting drum and bass drum patterns.
as far as im concerned youre continuing to parrot received uk crit wisdom until you can provide actual evidence to back up your specious claims. there were similarly syncopated drum patterns in house, go go, bmore club, bass music, all american-grown & higher-profile musics than UK dnb in the 1990s. Further, Timbo was a band nerd, wasnt he?? he probably got most of that syncopated drum pattern shit from marching bands, another american phenomena that is more familiar to 90% of the country than remarc’s greatest hits.
September 3rd, 2009 at 8:10 pm
I really really do not want to dive headfirst into a conversation about UK dance music and its relevance to american rap music, but I would like to say:
1. Ever since I moved to the UK, dubstep has been making me want to fucking die. It sounded cool and original at first, but then I realized that every single track is literally exactly the same thing but with different samples and the parts in a different order. For like 2 years, I would walk into clubs and hear nothing but fucking wack ass wobble bass. Worst shit. The worst is when I get tricked into going to see some DJ because “Mark, I’m telling you, this guy is different, he’s part of the new group of NON-WOBBLE dubstep producers!!!”, but then it ends up just being the same as everyone else with maybe a track from King Tubbys Meets Rockers Uptown played at the beginning, or something. WORST SHIT.
2. And fuck “bassline” too.
3. Burial isn’t really dubstep. Reminds me more of a lot of late 90s UK garage, when it was still kind of fun and interesting (and VERY Timbo-influenced, making it relevant to this discussion).
4. Grime is an interesting scene that never seems to fully deliver. I do love a lot of the MCs though. One of my favorite guys is “Knuckles”, who seems to do nothing but list various types of alcoholic drinks and describe the way he’s going to attack you with them. “something something old geezer / smash your face with bacardi breezer”. ill.
September 3rd, 2009 at 11:23 pm
It’s flat-out bullshit to not at least give some credence to Timbaland knowing about UK shit and using it in his music. Not even trying to call anybody out, but it’s starting to read more like “I don’t want this piece of information to be true” than “I really don’t think Timbo was influenced by this shit”. So many other DJs in the same era in basically the same place were influenced by it, why not Timbaland? Just because he was in the marching band and learned syncopation there doesn’t mean he didn’t pick up a little more here and there.
All that drum n bass stuff was strangely, mildly popular in the mid 90s here–if it wasn’t Redman wouldn’t have worked with Roni Size– and as I said before, most DJs spinning in the early 90s were hip to British imports, why not DJ Timmy Tim. If Timbaland had access to like, the soundtrack to ‘Hackers’ then some form of DnB leaked into his music…along with Go Go and Club and Miami Bass and marching band shit and disco and funk and Neo Geo games…
That said, there’s a real tendency amongst you Brits to overstate the influence and “sophistication” of your musics and that’s bleeding in a little bit here. One reason the sounds of the UK scenes and sub-scenes are more concentrated, cohesive, explain-able is because of resources and because the music doesn’t need to travel that far to envelope the greater scene.
Dubstep being a prime example. The reason the scene flips and turns into a new slightly-switched sound every few months is because it’s pretty linked together. By proximity alone, there’s more of an explicitly shared sensibility always brewing.
Not so in American cities, especially relatively poor, working-class black cities which suffer from proximity and lack of resources issues, especially 15-20 years ago. SINGLE fucking records would totally change the sound and style for years to come. If a new DJ arrived and he was producing on a different piece of equipment and so he chops his samples different, the sound shifts. And the 5 UK imports that they could order echo through the music for awhile.
September 3rd, 2009 at 11:43 pm
Stop applying Baltimore Club logic to actual rap music. The rest of america was most definitely not on some global beat one world import ordering fusion bullshit. Outside of college campuses “most DJs” were not hip to british imports at all. Flex wasn’t dropping bombs to fucking Dillinja at the tunnel. People in the hip hop world just did not check for dnb too tough except for the aforementioned dj shadow cargo pants types whose involvement “in the hip hop world” is debatable to begin with. Redman “worked” with Roni Size the same way Intelligent Hoodlum “worked” with CJ Macintosh. It’s a remix. Some low level record label employee was convinced that it would get him a few extra spins and there you go. Roni got a paycheck, Red got a few extra spins.
I don’t understand how this is even being argued. Timbaland has denied it explicitly. In 52 comments nobody has produced a specific example or point of comparison. How would anyone benefit from covering up Timbaland’s secret drum n bass origins anyway? What the hell sort of conspiracy is that?
September 4th, 2009 at 1:27 am
Timbaland also denies ever swiping shit from “Chrono Trigger”.
Club isn’t rap music so nice attempt at a diss? Baltimore’s only brought up because it’s something Pharrell and Missy have cited explicitly and is something that itself cites its debt to UK often. And it’s a big ugly hybrid of all the regional shit bouncing through the US 20 years ago so it’s relevant.
As I said earlier, it isn’t just Baltimore dude, it’s plenty of DJs from lots of parts of the country. My “random ass DJ Teddy Bear from Durham, NC who I happened to talk to the other day” example being an interesting, though hardly over-representative one. Point being: If that guy had Brit imports…
I think by the time Jungle and DnB was really a thing, Timbaland wouldn’t have had to look very far (turn on MTV) to hear some of that music. Same way say, RZA wasn’t hearing Jungle and shit in 1993 but by 1997 he’s referencing Bjork, sampling Portishead, etc etc. It ain’t that far of a stretch at all. It isn’t one you like but it’s as speculative as all this music nerd whogotwhatfromwhere stuff.
No doubt Flex wasn’t finding that stuff but New York’s an anomaly–something you’ve stressed many times before–the rest of the country was messing with hip-hop and dance music on much more back and forth level.
(waits for pithy remark back from Noz…)
September 4th, 2009 at 6:20 am
I need to get a hold of some Knuckles, that’s for damn sure, binge drinking rap is underrated, hahah. Those Newham General Cats are quite entertaining as well.
But I agree, dupstep was over before it begun (for the most part), its kind of the same as the “reviving” of French House, which was gay to begin with but when everyone jumped on it was the same fucking Justice song played over, and over again.
Actually none of the “genres” in Uk music are especially good, its exactly the same as american urban music, you have to dig to find good artists (and since its dj music sometimes good remixes and shit as well). Its a taxing geek way of living, but what the hey.
September 4th, 2009 at 7:45 am
“(waits for pithy remark back from Noz…)”
You’re just wrong.
You keep sidestepping the subject by referring to *imports* and *dance music* and “UK music* as if they are interchangeable with Dnb. I’m not going to sit here and be like DANCE MUSIC HAD NO INFLUENCE ON HIP HOP. But we are talking about a very specific strain here. Portishead and Bjork did not make drum n bass. Both of those acts definitely had hold over some corners of the hip hop world (ie Cru and Casual rapping over the “Sour Times” loop, Rza name dropping Bjork) but that has very little to do with this conversation.
From the little that I know I about bmore club, dnb doesn’t seem to play that big of a role there either. I’ve looked at a lot of DJ collections in the area over the years while random house and club imports turn up regularly I’ve never once seen anything that I recognize as drum n bass. Even if I am wrong it’d be a tenuous connection to make “Timbaland grew up with the Neptunes who like Baltimore club, a scene where sometimes drum n bass was played therefore drum n bass was a huge influence on Timbaland’s sound.”
I have talked to dozens of hip hop DJs around the country, none of them have ever mentioned checking for drum n bass. I was buying all sorts of mixtapes in this era none of them feature drum n bass songs in any way shape or form. The only hip hop DJ that I remember having any interest in it was Craze, who was a major outlier and kind of shook up the turntablist circuit when he started rocking dnb. Nobody followed his lead. (And by that point the turntablism shit was so far removed from regular hip hop that it really didn’t matter what djs in that scene did.) Beyond that the style never really gained any following stateside beyond the wire rimmed glasses/cargo pants/dj spooky/campus scene. Until it became car commercial music.
I’m not sure how I would benefit from having an ulterior motive here. I like a lot of jungle/dnb. If there was a line I’d gladly trace it. There isn’t.
September 4th, 2009 at 10:05 am
I know it went off on a tangent, but…I like that Two Fingers album.
About Timbaland’s influences: I’ve observed that at times his early stuff sounded like if you slowed down DNB & deleted a few drum hits. Doesn’t mean that that’s where he got it though. Hell, I’ve had people compare some of my own beats to artists I hadn’t heard of until they mentioned them.
September 4th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
firstly, I’m kinda surprised that this kicked off so much. I mean, once any thread gets going, I guess. I was being a bit flippant about Timabaland & that anyway. I’ve no idea if he was listening to jungle records, I just suspect it. seriously, rap heads have the thinnest skin tho. all that stuff Brendan said about the greater density of the UK contributing to more cohesive narratives is certainly true, tho it should be said that a lot of journos, esp. younger ones, are critical of such narratives; there’s been a massive & massively tedious debate around it for the last year & a half or so. (tbc, I’m American, I’ve just been heavily into jungle for a few years now – old jungle I mean, up to about ‘97 or so).
DJ Hype & Dillinja sampling Wu-Tang vocals for classic records they made in 1995 is, yes, pretty much a one-way street. I suspect no one knew that better than those dudes at the time they were making those records.
there are certainly those tangential connections tho – Bjork & Portishead weren’t making jungle records but they were undeniably influenced by it, The Prodigy as well – they came out of UK breakbeat hardcore, the forerunner to jungle – and Aphex & Squarepusher for that matter. so it’s kind of a once or twice removed thing, jungle is of course quite minor in terms of global influence in comparison to American rap . another thing about the density of the UK is that it’s a cultural hothouse – stuff that would never work in the States can explode very quickly. it still amazes me that jungle had chart success for a minute there in like ‘94-95, it seems way too ruffneck, challenging, unhinged from any normal pop conventions, to be pop music – same thing with grime 10 years later. the thing is, it’s also the same thing with rap, it’s kind of astounding that it ever rose to such heights of popularity. Noz has said before that hip hop is by nature avant garde, making consciously avant hip hop kinda redundant. same thing with jungle (another reason I don’t like Squarepusher).
September 4th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Timbaland makes dance music though. Yeah, it’s hip-hop too, but it’s notably more dance oriented. What makes this fun and why everyone’s opinion here matters–when we’re playing fair–is where our interpretive points break apart, split, and sometimes even merge back again. Even the rather corny debate of where junk like DJ Shadow falls–is it “hip hop” or not?–is fun when a smart mind’s behind the answer/opinion.
I certainly wasn’t saying I have some larger knowledge and experience with record collections than you Noz, but I was saying there’s evidence there that I’ve experienced and it isn’t limited to Baltimore Djs. Nothing more than that.
We’re really discussing two eras of UK dance (UK hard house, hip-house, late 80s early 90s) and DnB/Jungle early-mid 90s) and they’re being weirdly conflated as one, in part because well, it’s sort of this rolling discussion–a very good, fun one I’d add–and in part because everyone’s reading everyone for the sole purpose of calling bullshit. So it’s all getting kinda stopped-up.
I contributed to this by attempting to loop it up with Bmore, but only the reason that I said–to show/”prove” that the concept of a bunch of hip-hop oriented DJs in a kinda crappy city were hip to UK music. UK music that was less popular in the states than DnB or Jungle, mind you.
Padraig’s connection between Bjork, Portishead, etc and Jungle and DnB was indeed, what I was getting at. Both of those bands were on MTV in the mid 90s and if you stayed up late, you might catch some genuine DnB and stuff too. Timbaland didn’t have to seek out DnB, it was right in front of him and as his career’s shown, his eyes and ears are very open.
Re: Baltimore Club and DnB. There’s no interest from Club guys in DnB because those guys, while awesomely innovative in this like termite-art way, just stopped at UK music circa 1992 and just kept making it and making it, long after hip-house was declared cornball to the general populace. This isn’t Timbaland’s style.
My point would be, DJ Timmy Tim, a DJ in the early 90s probably played some UK or at least knew some DJs who did and heard that. I mentioned this because there was a sort of flat-out refusal to even accept that producers like Timbo would’ve or could’ve heard or cared to hear UK stuff–”it’s a one way street” talk. My point is, it is, but it isn’t. This is why I stepped in on this here and not when a similar conversation rose up about RZA. RZA wasn’t making dance shit at all, Timbo is and was. RZA was never a DJ. Timbo was.
How does that connect to Jungle?
Later, the UK scene switches into Jungle, DnB, etc. which by this time Timmy Tim is becoming Timbaland. 1996 or so. Timbaland is producing and those newer UK sounds are steadily hovering around the mainstream. Like I said, the Hackers soundtrack, games for Dreamcast, MTV’s 120 Minutes would drop some weird shit between a Pavement and Juliana Hatfield video.
There’s also a sub-narrative here about how bursting with everything the mid/late 90s were in terms of music, a weird amount of freedom, a good economy so people could risk sticking Bjork on TV etc. etc.
September 4th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
All hip hop is dance music. None of it is influenced by drum n bass.
September 4th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
And stop calling him Timmy Tim.
September 4th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
“there are certainly those tangential connections tho – Bjork & Portishead weren’t making jungle records but they were undeniably influenced by it, ”
Definitely but now you’re talking more of that “the influence of my influence is also my influence” business and it doesn’t usually work that way.
September 4th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Well, I was using Timmy Tim advisedly–to differentiate the DJ that maybe just maybe spun some UK shit and the dude who produced “Pony” who maybe just maybe injected some of the UK shit into his beats.
If you grew up in the 90s and had access to any kind of broad popular music culture, you’re influenced by DnB (and a lot other things, obviously).
September 4th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
Exposure doesn’t necessarily beget influence.
September 4th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
I just put the first photek album on my ipod. It is still better than burial.
September 4th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
it’s true, it all gets a bit suspect but I mean, I dunno, it’s like a gabba kick drum popping up in “I Luv U”. does that mean Dizzee was listening to Nasenbluten or whatever before he made it? no, but there were those folk memory traces in the musical DNA. I’m a strong believer in that stuff, which is admittedly difficult to directly prove.
or you get say, “Come to Daddy” in heavy rotation on MTV (an unlikelier hit I can’t think of) & I mean, I dunno. not about Timbaland, obviously. just that there’s a record, at least reasonably well known in the States, that’s essentially Aphex’s bastardized (& inferior, but hey) take on jungle. but clearly that’s just one thing, larger point taken & so on.
honestly I don’t really care whether or not Timbaland knew about jungle. he made a whole mess of great, great records & he did influence a bunch of other music that I like very much (2step Garage). so great.
I could sum this all up & say, like – for me 93-96 jungle is what I guess various strands of rap are for most CB readers. it’s like for this brief shining moment somehow this scene managed to hold everything together – achingly beautiful ambient jungle, darkside bottom dropping out vibes, the whole ruffneck ragga element, a million choppy Amens, all that – it just seems impossible. it’s like watching Apocalypse Now or Lawrence of Arabia or one of those Herzog jungle movies & you’re thinking – how in the name of god did this ever get made? it’s like a miracle or something. that undoubtedly sounds absurdly hokey but oh well. & the utter shite that it’s devolved into since the late 90s is like punishment for that one perfect moment.
@Brandon – that point about the economy is one & how it relates to pop music is one I see made around. I dunno how true or not it is. stuff like that is kinda the point where I switch over to becoming a bit suspicious of narratives myself. that is, when it gets away from the sonics (& in hip hop, the lyrics) & into the sociology. it just seems like both topics are too complex to neatly bundle up like that. but I mean, I dunno.
@Noz – you know how you’re always (well, occasionally) going on about C90s & how no one listens to tapes anymore on some cranky old dude tip? well, I was thinking – I will trade you a mixtape of hip hop influenced/sampling jungle classics for a mixtape of, I dunno, whatever you want to put on it.
September 4th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
dude, nix that. I will make you a mixtape solely of old Photek classics, from before he went by the name Photek.
if you read just about any interview with Burial he goes on & on about Photek & El-B & the greatness of their drums, both engineering & programming. with due cause of course. Burial’s real rave music tho, yunno, that spirit.
September 4th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
“dude, nix that. I will make you a mixtape solely of old Photek classics, from before he went by the name Photek.”
Sure but this has sentimental value so it stays on the ipod.
“or you get say, “Come to Daddy” in heavy rotation on MTV”
“Come to Daddy” was never actually in heavy rotation on MTV. It got the most votes on some battle of the songs type show and entered “rotation” and then was never really played again. I think it might have beat out “Retrospect For Life” IIRC?! I need to fill my brain with more useful information.
September 4th, 2009 at 11:21 pm
Padraig-
I’d agree about narratives and economics and music etc. but there’s a certain level of pragmatism and contingency about any sort of explaining, historicizing, etc. and so, you gotta balance making it compact with it not being TOO bullshit.
My point about UK stands just as it would with say, New York. One reason New York rap was what it is for those years was because there’s greater connectivity in that city. Economics too. It’s “small town” vs. “city”. If you’re in a small town, simply odds are you’ll be less apt to find like-minded or even close to like-minded people, in a big city, less so. It’s just like probability. That doesn’t negate UK or New York, until value judgements start entering the discussion.
Noz-
Really not trying to argue, really being civil in this whole thing but dude, “Come to Daddy” was totally in rotation, I can remember seeing it every day after school–so rote was MTV’s “rotation” even back then.
September 5th, 2009 at 6:01 am
On a sidenote, what does people think of this? :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3k9inu83DM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yED8xFOGkCo&feature=related
extremely timbo influenced, especially the last song, its Denmarks best selling rap artists latest album.
September 6th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
ppl still havent shown musically what it was timbo did that was so dnb influenced. ‘comeon he had the hackers soundtrack’ isnt a convincing argument imo
September 6th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
& incidentally — i really like a lot of the early jungle ive heard, one of my favorite mixes is a guy called gerald’s ‘96 essential mix (’95?)
i just dont think it sounds anything like timbaland & when ppl bring that up it reeks of attempts to condescendingly legitimize timbo by his engagement w/ ’serious’ music & to legitimize dnb’s place as a significant movement w/ an impact on pop
September 7th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
well it seems like we all pretty much settled our issues but just to clarify about “legitimizing”: i think it’s mostly nonsense. one of jungle’s huge problems was seeking “legitimacy”; proper musicianship (i.e. “real” instruments as opposed to samplers & computers), songs instead of tracks, albums (which -almost- never work in dance music) over 12″/singles, etc. this is what happened to the whole Bukem/Looking Good/etc. side of jungle after about ~’96, all shimmery Rhodes chords & ambient pads that go nowhere, have no punch*. this is right around the time jungle becomes “drum & bass”, is legitimized by the UK media after years of being underground, untouchable in the mainstream. this isn’t exactly unique to jungle, it happens to most strands of “urban” music sooner or later. so legitimizing jungle or D is too me, almost entirely a negative – it may lead to a few auteurs (4 Hero, Goldie, AGCG, etc. – all deserving of course) breaking through but it’s often the death knell for the scene, the massive, etc.
so comparing Tim to jungle (accuracy aside for a moment) is, to me at least, the exact opposite of that kind of legitimization. jungle – & most UK Garage, etc. – are way too weird to have been successful American pop music. “serious” is, I dunno, I mean it depends what you mean by that. if you mean like chin-stroking Stockhausen serious, then no, definitely not.
either way, that offer to switch mixtapes still stands, for David or anyone else interested. if you click on my name you’ll see a blog where I post like once every 4 months & there’s an email I can be reached at.
*conversely jungle’s other big problem was getting too hard/dark, losing the sexiness & swing that was so essential to giving jungle it’s proper balance; i.e. latter Ed Rush, Optical, Trace, but much moreso even their legions of pale imitators (Bad Company etc.). or getting obsessed w/engineering & sound design over just making solid tunes – as great as Photek was he (& Source Direct) have to come in for some of the blame on that one. actually some of these problems are reminiscent of rap in the ’00s…at least as far as losing a handle on those balances of ruff/smooth, darkside/good vibes, etc.
September 10th, 2009 at 6:20 am
no idea if anyones still reading this thread lol but basically yeah, hip hop djs dont like jungle or dance music. at all. even if its hip hop related, like jungle. so its not surprising hip hop heads hate the idea of timbaland being into jungle. even if timbo isnt exactly large pro or premier when it comes to keeping it ‘pure’ (i mean if it was them i could understand the surprise/hatred). as for the legitimisation thing, thats just weird. hip hops on way more peoples radars and generally respected more than jungle really (which is still just seen as dance, whereas hip hop has ‘content’ and is/was saying something etc etc).