1. Tray

   I’ll leave the poll question aside (although I would point out that more people said they tolerate/enjoy homophobia than said they dislike it), but I will say that Kill That Faggot is an absolute classic. If he had put that, Switch My Style (the song over the Tweet beat), Whattup Whattup, and some of the other stuff on his mixtapes from the past few years on an album, I think it would’ve been the best thing to come out of New York in a really long time. Which isn’t saying much, but still.

   May 30th, 2008

2. padraig

   well I wanna thank you for bringing it up, noz, even if you regret it. it’s an uncomfortable issue for a lot of people but it’s always better to try to discuss uncomfortable issues than it is to let them sit & fester. plus it makes cocaine blunts, one of the few joints to try & strike a fair balance between ignorance & consciousness, a nicer place if all-caps “I HAYT FAGS” kindsa dudes know to take their views elsewhere. anyway, we don’t have to keep talking about it – most people turn to music to escape from worldly issues so by all means let’s get back to that.

   and just to clarify I don’t think Khujo is a terrible person (just wrong) and I’m not on a crusade against every rapper who says “faggot”. i do encourage people to think about their prejudices though, and why they have them.

   May 30th, 2008

3. padraig

   @tray – counting people who voted “delicious” as “enjoying” homophobia is, uh, a little misleading, no? it was just a cb-style snarky third option to take the piss out of a loaded question.

   May 30th, 2008

4. Chris

   Tray tends to miss important, yet minute, details often.

   May 30th, 2008

5. Tray

   Well, when I voted delicious I meant that I find homophobic rap entertaining, which isn’t to say that homophobia in and of itself is that amusing, but artfully executed homophobia in hip-hop, like, say, Cam saying no homo forty times in one song, can be funny and I don’t mind it at all, so if I just said ‘tolerable’ I think I’d be selling homophobia short. Of course, I can’t speak for what other delicious voters meant.

   May 30th, 2008

6. padraig

   ^well, exactly. you find the absurdity amusing, not the homophobia itself. it’s basically the “homies over hoes” scenario (for which I’m sure Dipset provided much of the inspiration), b/c if there’s something gayer than a bunch of hypermasculine dudes talking about their guns, their homies & how much they disdain women (aside from, of course, mamas) I’d like to know what the hell it is. i do admit it’s hard to imagine anyone being offended by Cam. bewildered seems a more likely reaction, possibly w/a knowing wink if they’ve seen the cover of Confessions of Fire.

   May 30th, 2008

7. ANU

   I voted delicious for the same reason as Tray, i would also vote delicious if the poll was about “killin white people”.

   May 30th, 2008

8. david

   we need more rappers like khujo and styles p

   May 30th, 2008

9. Tray

   Well… I don’t know if you can suss out the homophobia from the absurdity. Suppose your stereotypical redneck laughs at a really funny racist joke. Could you defend him and say, oh, he doesn’t find racism funny, he’s just laughing at the humor? Or take “Kill That Faggot” – now of course I’ll say I don’t enjoy it because of the homophobia, I just think it’s a great song, but if a white rapper made a song called “Kill That N—–”, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t like it no matter how good a rapper he was, and noz wouldn’t even be able to post it without being called a racist, and the rapper would instantly become a celebrity/invest in a big security detail, and so on. Whereas Styles makes this and no one minds, the general consensus is he’s not even talking about gay people, he just means lames or whatever. Well if that’s the case, why not avoid offending anyone and call it “Kill That Lame”? But that would weaken the song tremendously because he wouldn’t be tapping into the same hatred and opprobrium that faggot connotes. His taking it there is what makes the song so good.

   May 30th, 2008

10. padraig

    ^I was just going to let it go but know that you mention it Tray, “Kill That Faggot”…I wouldn’t say I find it offensive so much as stupid & lazy. you say that Styles is “tapping into the same hatred…faggot connotes” but surely there are many far more creative ways to make that point. put it like this – if you need to resort to homophobic (or racist, etc.) shorthand in order to make your song powerful then you aren’t doing a very good job in the first place. I wouldn’t say it’s better or worse but at least w/Khujo he was actually talking about the thing literally instead of just using it as a cheap gimmick.

    and re: Cam & other buoyant homo thugs my point was that many people are laughing at as opposed to with them, similar to Kool Keith or Kells (though all 3 of course have their % of devoted, irony-free fans). Cam saying no homo 40 times in a song is so absurd that it comes off more like some piece of Dadaesque performance art than rap. the other thing is that, as discussed in the other thread, homophobia & racism are 2 entirely different beasts. racism is much more clearly drawn, external – one easily defined group oppressing and/or dominating another group(s). homophobia is much murkier, an internal fear, not of gays as a group but of either being gay or at least having to deal w/sexuality as something that is complex & fluid. thus standing up to homophobia is, if not more difficult then certainly more complicated being that it involves examining & becoming comfortable w/one’s one sexuality (esp. since, without variation, the first retort from a homophobe is always be “well, then you must be a fag”).

    btw I think we should take noz’s advice and agree to disagree as I doubt continuing to argee in the CB comments will change either of our views. if you want make another post to get the last word in then go for it but I’m done.

    May 30th, 2008

11. Tray

    I don’t disagree with anything you say really. In the case of Cam many are laughing at as opposed to with him – though maybe it’s with, since I’m not sure that he even means it seriously. And I certainly agree that homophobia and racism are entirely different types of prejudices, although I’m not so sure that the people who deploy the term are willing to admit that. But I still have to insist that a world where rap was scrubbed clean of prejudice isn’t one I’d look forward to. For instance, I’m Jewish, so I was a little piqued when Mos said his piece about a tall Israeli running this rap shit, as if there’s something wrong with a Jew in particular running a rap label, but nevertheless I didn’t think it was right when the label pulled the song off the album. For that matter, I wouldn’t have wanted him to change the line himself. Hip-hop’s always been about keeping it real; if he feels that way, not only should he be allowed to say it, he ought to say it. And I’d even admit that, if you understand the resentments behind it, in a way it’s a cutting line and one of the few memorable moments in Mos’s work the past few years. Which isn’t to say it wasn’t misguided and ignorant. But a rap scene totally devoid of anti-Semitism just wouldn’t be a very authentic reflection of the contemporary black experience.

    May 31st, 2008

12. Wade Collins

    “Homophobia” is a bullshit word. Someone who takes an idealogical stance against the acceptance of homosexuality in society isn’t scared of faggots. Even a reaction of disgust to a faggot doesn’t imply fear.

    I’m scared of a faggot like I’m scared of a puddle of puke on the sidewalk. It’s a disgusting yet inconsequential mess you just step around and keep moving.

    @Padraig – fear of sexuality being fluid? Again I don’t see anything to be scared of. It’s pretty obvious that this fluidity is present, is it inconceivable that when someone’s sexuality goes too far in a certain direction that the natural reaction is disgust? If someone’s “fluid sexuality” inclined them to fucking goats, would you leap to their defence and denounce the ____phobes around you?

    Homosexuality is perfectly natural, much like murder and rape. Civilization is rational beings curbing their inclinations so as to do what is morally correct. Homosexuality is nowhere near as apparently immoral as the latter 2, to see it takes a more long term perspective.

    To sum it it up in a nutshell – the more the concept of sex and sexual relationships are dissociated from the idea of raising a family (and a homosexual relationship is that by definition) – the more fucked the fuck up society gets. I forget the stats, and I’m too lazy to look them up, but some alarming % of kids today are raised by a single parent, and people in general aren’t getting married anymore. If kids aren’t being raised by families, IMO, a society is on it’s way out.

    Given that the trend in media is to treat sexuality as simply some sort of pleasure tool or status indicator, it’s great to hear rappers deal with faggots in an honest way. Politically correct hip hop is an oxymoron.

    May 31st, 2008

13. rob pursey

    I wish I never brought it up.

    ^for real

    For a second my favourite blog – one that still focuses on quality music – was becoming like the rest.

    Can we continue to focus on important things like whether Paper Route Recordz are hotter than Georgia Durt, or some shit. My money’s on the former…just.

    May 31st, 2008

14. padraig

    @tray – well, now that we’re being cordial. I co-sign wwhat you’re saying w/one distinction – I’d hope (and it’s an idealistic hope as opposed to a pragmatic expectation) that those prejudices would disappear of their own accord over time. but I too would look poorly on a world where rappers felt compelled to pull their punches & constrained from saying what’s on their mind. contradictions produce great art. btw I thought that Mos Def line was great (fuck Lior Cohen anyway) & I’m 1/2 Jewish myself.

    May 31st, 2008

15. padraig

    @wade collins – you’re more than a little late to the party – see the previous thread for a refutation of your “ideas”. anyway I’m going to respect noz’s wishes & let him get back to the music so I’m not going to rise to your bait. though even if I was I wouldn’t bother validating nonsense that seeks to compare homosexuality to bestiality, rape & murder, not to mention pulling out the beyond tired Focus on the Family line of scapegoating gays for the “downfall of the family” and thus society, blah blah blah. I’d tell you to get James Dobson’s dick out of your mouth but, well, you know. anyway I’m sure you’re right that once everyone’s straight divorce, infidelity & teen pregnancy will all magically disappear & we’ll live in a wondrous hetero-utopia where professional wrestling & 80s action movies can operate w/out a shred of irony. and god will smile down & wave his magic wand and there’ll be unicorns & rainbows & house music…oh, wait. drat those dastardly gays, perverting everything good & pure & wholesome. next thing you know they’ll be masturbating in mom’s apple pie & trying to shove baseball bats up each others’ rectums (don’t get any wild ideas you craaaazy gays!!).

    on a serious note though, Wade, get James Dobson’s dick out of your mouth. you don’t know where that thing’s been. it might give you herpes.

    sorry, noz, I rose to the bait. last time, I promise. back to Rap-A-Lot obscurities & Project Blowed stannery & Killer Mike interviews I say!!! more Mac Mall! damn the gay torpedoes, full speed ahead!

    May 31st, 2008

16. Wade Collins

    Sorry never heard of James Dobson.

    I’m not scapegoating gays for anything – gays will be gay and there’s nothing anyone can or should do about it.

    I’m scapegoating the spineless manginas like yourself who think that that and other behaviours are acceptable.

    As far as disintegration of the family, I made it clear in my post that acceptance of homosexuality is a small part of it. There’s a web of reasons for societal attitudes changing, you can’t isolate it to one particular thing. I believe the dissociation of sex and family is a part of it, and the acceptance of homosexuality a small part of that. The attitude displayed the media to heterosexual sex is probably a bigger part.

    Oh and as for comparing faggots to goat-fuckers, you completely miss the point. The analogy is used to show the weakness of your argument – i.e. people who defend fags could use the same logic to defend all sorts of bullshit, so obviously the logic is flawed. Obviously given faggots are consenting it’s not a crime like the other acts are, which is why there’s no point in getting up in arms about it. To me, it’s the “acceptance” of the behaviour that is the problem.

    May 31st, 2008

17. padraig

    ^no, you’re the one missing the point, or rather several points. which I somehow doubt is a new occurence for you. anyway, I meant it, I’m done internet-arguing with hateful troglodytes. I leave everything I’ve said to stand on its’ own merit – if you want to attack it with your own “logic” then feel free. I am glad to have people like you around to tell us which behaviors are & aren’t “acceptable”.

    btw, “spineless mangina”? stinging, truly. yours is a rapier wit, sir.

    May 31st, 2008

18. Tray

    Well, I would agree with Wade that homophobia is sort of a misnomer. Heterosexism is probably the more accurate term – fear of homosexuality is a part of the prejudice against gays, but only a part. I don’t think that homosexuality is contributing to the dissolution of the family. There’s just as much casual sex going on on the straight side, and at least gay men don’t impregnate women and run away. And, padraig, I too would hope that these prejudices would disappear over time – although, one of the things that makes rap fun and interesting is its ignorance, and the ignorance often comes in the form of some prejudice, whether it’s misogyny or heterosexism or whatever. I hope that rappers develop more healthy attitudes towards women one day, it’d be good for the kids who listen to them, but on the other hand, it’d be a real shame if no one ever made another “Bitches Ain’t Shit.”

    May 31st, 2008

19. PURPLE HULK

    if all-caps “I HAYT FAGS” kindsa dudes know to take their views elsewhere

    YOU DISSING ME PADRAIG?

    May 31st, 2008

20. Wade Collins

    ok if you don’t think anything I’ve said is logical there’s no point in continuing because I can’t make my argument any simpler. Unlike a feminist I don’t feel the need to spout ideological bafflegab to make a point that doesn’t exist.

    As for spineless mangina – that I can explain. Spineless, because you have some beliefs (acceptance of homosexuality) but not the spine to defend them in the context of rap music, rather you take a conciliatory approach and claim that the rappers have some sort of charming ignorance that you find entertaining… almost as if they aren’t rational and should be held to a different (lower) standard than yourself. Seems like a sort of detached hipster racism actually.

    Mangina – you’re obviously a hopelessly indoctrinated feminist.

    Rapier wit? You wrote an entire paragraph a post back that was an attempt to be funny but was a)boring, b)pretty much an ad hominem attack, much like the rest of your posts. I certainly didn’t start the name calling.

    You say you’re done arguing, but you never started. An argument is an appeal to logic and empiricism, you have neither, just historicist rambling.

    Feel free to get the last word, I truly am done.

    May 31st, 2008

21. padraig

    ^alright then, i will. you talked me into it. “logic”, is it?

    “you’re obviously a hopelessly indocrinated feminist” – and you’re obviously a hopelessly indocrinated homophobe (or hater of gays, if you prefer) & anti-feminist, though I suspect you connect the two together. it all hinges to what you see as “morally correct”, which has nothing to do with logic. you compare homosexuality to murder & rape as things against which “civilized” people must curb their inclinations, but your definition of civilization is woefully inadequate. it’s merely a label for a type of human society characterized by agriculture, division of labor into specialties, etc. which in and of itself has nothing to do w/any universally applicable morality. individual civilizations have had and have their own, shifting moral values, e.g. homosexuality has been seen as morally acceptable & even desirable in various times/places & taboo in others. your own views are based upon your own largely irrational prejudices. disgust has nothing to do with logic. I also strongly disagree w/your frankly, absurd, view of sexuality as a sliding scale going from morally correct (straight) to perverse (gay) to more perverse (bestiality) which is again, merely your own feelings as opposed to “an appeal to logic and empiricism”. you’re certainly entitled to your views but drop the insufferable pretense that they rise above “ideological bafflegab” when in fact they epitomize it.

    “charming ignorance that you find entertaining” – I don’t find anything about ignorance to be “charming” but as tray said, homophobia & anti-Semitism are both parts of the “contemporary black experience”, if obviously not for all black people on an individual level, and following on the lines of “rap is the black cnn” (admittedly, a statement w/its’ own problems) I think something that reports all the news, even that which I don’t like, is preferrable to censorship. so, no, I don’t hold Khujo or anyone else to a lower standard. rather I find hip hop to be amazing & powerful but also at times loathsome, sometimes all at once (not to mention when it’s just an uncomplicated good time). like I said, contradictions sometimes produce great art which can be appreciated whether or not you agree with the artist’s views or like them as a person.

    @PURPLE HULK – ACTUALLY YOUR PARTICULAR ALL CAPS APPROACH IS SO ADAMANTLY OVER THE TOP THAT I KIND OF ENJOY IT.

    Jun 1st, 2008

22. Tray

    you… claim that the rappers have some sort of charming ignorance that you find entertaining… almost as if they aren’t rational and should be held to a different (lower) standard than yourself. Seems like a sort of detached hipster racism actually.

    I have to admit, this paragraph, while not directed at me, is a pretty fair description of my attitude towards certain rappers.

    Jun 1st, 2008

23. Wade Collins

    ok I’m tempted back in because your post ties things together nicely.

    My talk of homosexuality and its acceptance has 2 parts, disgust (illogical, and for the sake of argument, irrelevant) and the decline of society (logical, and worth arguing).

    I agree that disgust has nothing to do with logic. There’s no logical reason that I should find homosexuality immediately disgusting, I just do. I suspect that’s “human nature”. That a “human nature” exists is another belief I have, i.e. I don’t believe people are born a blank slate and simply a product of sensory inputs. The latter view, which I suspect you have, suggests all human characteristics are infinitely malleable and given the right programming can learn to prosper under any circumstances. That’s a complicated question and this probably isn’t the place to debate it.

    The logical part of my argument, is when I talk of decline of society. I agree my definition of civilization is woefully inadequate, it’s a line of rhetoric on a message board so I’m cherry picking relationships that I think are the the most relevant. The factors you mention are all part of civilization, but I would add to them: family structure, and conceptions of morality. Again, I’m not trying to be a completist, holistic thinking is impossible.

    Different civilizations have had wildly different moral standards and sexual conventions, which to you suggests that morality is not universal. What happened to these civilizations though? How are they doing now? If a civilizations moral standards or sexual conventions resulted in the extinction of a civilization, might they be wrong? If they kept a civilization from progressing, might they be revised for the better?

    It’s speculated that for most of human history (pre-history, before any sort of writing), most of humanity was in fact a matriarchal society. Obviously this entails different sexual practices and organizations than we have today. For that majority of human history, humans lived miserably in caves and no advances were made. So when people point out that other civilizations had certain acceptances and practices, I like to hear of what happened to these civilizations or where are they today.

    To me morality is 100% logical. If you take as a given that it applies universally (i.e. no double standards), act on principles that you could also will to be applied universally.

    Surely, principles that should be applied universally are ones that allow a society to prosper. Since I believe that acceptance of homosexuality is some (maybe minor?) part of western society’s dissociation of sex from family, and that the latter is one of the causes of children not being raised by families anymore, and that that leads to a societal collapse, I could hardly will that acceptance of homosexuality be practiced universally. So I therefore consider it immoral.

    The above, I consider logical, and not based on any sort of prejudice. If you think the above paragraph is based on any sort of ‘irrational prejudice’, I’d be interested in hearing what it is. If it’s ideological bafflegab, let me know, the chain of reasoning seems clear to me.

    ok 2 last statements:
    -I don’t hate gays… back in my first post when I mentioned a puddle of puke, the point wasn’t only to demonstrate disgust but also to show how completely inconsequential it is to my life. I forget about a puddle of puke the second I’ve walked by it, the effect of a homosexual on my life is zero so why would I hate something of no consequence.

    -I am 110% anti-feminist, yes. Feminism to me, is the worst ideology because it is incoherent. Communism, naziism, are at least coherent and can argued against in a rational fashion. However an ideology that starts with a lie (that men and women are the same) is poisonous because it does away with reason at the outset.

    Jun 1st, 2008

24. louder now help me out

    yo college, this is fucking ridiculous.

    Jun 2nd, 2008

25. brandonsoderberg

    That this is still going on is amazing…

    Here goes and this goes for the retards who don’t like gays and the retards who are offended the Khujo maybe doesn’t like gays.

    This isn’t some rap-centric conversation. It’s the same conversation that’s been going on in art forever and especially since the 1960s where somehow, art became increasingly connected to conventional liberal, left-wing sympathies. Ezra Pound was into Mussolini, Mishima cut his head off in support of the old rule of Japan (he was also a homosexual, stuff’s complicated guys…), Nietzsche and Wagner and Mark Twain and Martin Luther and lots of other guys talked some shit on Jews and blah blah blah.

    To take it out of the realm of fancy pants culture: Punk rock douchebag historian Legs McNeil has this thing about how all the skinhead, nazi etc. punk wasn’t “punk” or “art” because art is about “opening one’s mind”. So to him say, Agnostic Front or a whole two decade of punk-influenced black metal bands isn’t “art”. That’s uh, kinda fascist.

    Get over it. Bands and artists and people you like won’t always have the same opinions as you. Sometime their opinions will even offend or upset you.

    Jun 2nd, 2008

26. rob pursey

    PLEASE put up a new post Noz – end this now!!

    Jun 2nd, 2008

27. TSF

    On a completely different note, word to Weezy: 1) NO ONE is saying you rap like Andre 3k and 2) Jay-Z murdered you on your own shit!

    Jun 2nd, 2008

28. Djeff

    Write something, Noz.
    If you only have cocaineblunts now, you HAVE to put twice as much material on it.
    I mean, with the CIII leak, you even have one of your favorite post subject ever

    Jun 2nd, 2008

29. Tray

    Wow, brandon wins the “condescending post designed to show off poster’s shitty education (that doesn’t even address the issue) of the year” award. What Mishima did on his personal time with his head, what Pound said in his radio broadcasts, or what Wagner said in his letters to Cosima (look Mommy, I can namedrop too!), isn’t quite analogous to what rappers say in their songs. Obviously, no one cares if Khujo says some homophobic shit to his friends on the block. If the offensive sentiments are in his actual work, though, it’s a little different. Or in other words, there’s a big difference between Sein und Zeit and Mein Kampf. Now of course I’m not going to put down my copy of What Maisie Knew because James has some anti-Semitic depictions of a couple characters there, but at some point the “artists may have opinions that offend you; that’s life, they’re artists” boilerplate doesn’t work.

    Jun 2nd, 2008

30. noz

    “If you only have cocaineblunts now, you HAVE to put twice as much material on it.”

    Why?

    Jun 2nd, 2008

31. runkbaset

    ““If you only have cocaineblunts now, you HAVE to put twice as much material on it.”

    Why?”

    Because you’re one of the net’s finest writers, that’s the reason. Few are at this level with the craft AND the research.

    Good luck with finding somewhere else to sell your pieces, I heard it’s not easy these days.

    Jun 3rd, 2008

32. Mothra Jones

    co-sign with runkbaset…

    obviously because you’ve developed a following of less talented commenters that like to follow your coat tails and intellectually masterbate themselves into confusion, which is generally funny. But you’re material is top notch; most of these suckas commenting would love to have an equally attended/viewed site, but they lack-er, a lot.

    Get a job for Wax Poetics! or something equally relevant.

    Or go buy Russell Simmon’s book, “DO YOU”. Even for the title alone.

    Jun 3rd, 2008

33. brandonsoderberg

    Tray-
    Mishima’s politics ARE his art, dummy.

    Plus, it was sort of a joke post, chill out.

    Jun 3rd, 2008

34. TSF

    P.S. Thanks for the links in the Rotations column, can’t ever get enough Wale!

    Jun 3rd, 2008

35. Djeff

    noz : runkbaset developped my sentiment exactly.
    When an addict, used to have two doses from two different places, now has only one source to go to, he will want two doses from that one place. I don’t know if my lack of english skills will suffice as an excuse for that poor metaphor, this time.

    Jun 3rd, 2008

36. Tray

    Brandon, obviously it’s a hard line to draw, but even you bash Jeezy for celebrating drug dealing, so I think padraig has a right to be mad at khujo for intolerance. Besides, while I’m sure I’m not for Japan going back to imperial rule, that’s not exactly a terribly offensive position to stake out. It’s not like John Q. Liberal is going to pick up Mishima and be like, “oh my God, he was for a restoration of the Meiji regime, I can’t read this royalist anymore!”

    Jun 3rd, 2008

37. Giraffo

    I’d just like to second Rob Pursey here. Paper Route Recordz ARE hotter than Georgia Durt. I have no idea whatsoever why the Fader-hipster crowd are the only ones to hype these guys. They’re obviously the best thing to happen to hip-hop in ages, developing the Three 6 sound into something new and strange. These guys have basically made several strong contenders for Song of the Millennium (Mz Thursday is my favorite – possibly the best song about desire ever. But no one seems to give a damn. Not even you, Noz. It just Puzzles me, is all.

    Jun 4th, 2008

38. Giraffo

    Oh, and if the problem is that no one has actually heard Paper Route yet, just holla and I’ll up some zshares or something. They’re easily the best thing out now.

    Jun 4th, 2008

39. padraig

    @wade collins – I dunno if you (or anyone) is still checking this thread but if you are I have to say – fair enough, for the most part, even where I disagree.

    to your first point concerning disgust & human nature, which I agree is too complicated to discuss in detail here. quickly – I do believe in “human nature”, albeit to an extent. I think most of our prejudices/fears/preferences are motivated by a synthesis of that nature & various external influences. as it relates to our discussion, I don’t doubt that some part of your irrational disgust towards homosexuality is beyond your control – on the other hand I think you, as well as I or anyone else, are usually capable of overcoming your irrational prejudices (”curbing our inclinations”, as you put it), even if in this case you don’t want to for other reasons.

    to your other, more salient argument; basically I understand your argument & even though we differ I admit none of it seems to based on prejudice. I admit that my own definition of civilization was inadequate as well (as you said, message board), but I don’t know about “family structure” & “conceptions of morality” as hallmarks. to the former, there were family units before agriculture & cities. a more complex, formal family structure, perhaps? I’m not a sociologist or an anthropologist, I don’t know. I disagree with the latter more strongly – I’d say, again, perhaps a more formal conception of morality. that is, taboos formalized into laws. b/c a great deal of morality doesn’t become necessary until you’ve gathered enough people in one place that they don’t all know each other & divided them into classes. morality as codified by law & religion, divorced from basical survival pragmatism. I hope you’ll forgive me this “historicist rambling” but I’d also point out that morality is generally on the side of the victors, for example white people w/guns forcing non-white people to accept their morals & so on. I’m not equating that to gays, just pointing that morality generally doesn’t favor less powerful groups. your point about observing which civilizations failed/succeeded is very valid, but unfortunately it’s beyond us & I suspect most scholars to definitively state why certain civilizations lasted or didn’t.

    on feminism – replace “the same” w/”should be on equal footing when at all possible”. for me at least. you might say that’s semantics but I think there’s a huge difference. I admit that outside of bell hooks & a couple of “classics” (the feminine mystique & the like) I haven’t read a ton of feminist theory but I think most feminists, certainly most of the ones I’ve known, would fiercely dispute anyone who said “men & women are exactly the same”. not that feminism doesn’t/didn’t have its’ problems, including but not limited to dealing w/race & class, the split between NOW-style mainstream feminists & the more radical ones, etc. anyway I encourage you (both of us actually) to read some feminist theory & see if you still think that “the same” is its’ central tenet.

    I know you made some other points but I want to wrap this up so this coment doesn’t get any longer. I’d like to apologize for the name calling – you’ll understand how frustrating it can get to deal w/people who just want to hurl vitriol & your first post, w/all the gratuitous “fags”, really came off as more of the same.

    Jun 4th, 2008

40. padraig

    @brandon/tray – thanks for sticking up for me, tray, but to be honest I’m not even “mad at Khujo for intolerance”. disappointed & a little sad more than anything. though I’d probably be angrier if it was like dancehall where lyrics were literally inciting murder (mostly just stirring up feelings that already exist, to be fair). even there – you can’t just paint all dancehall artists & fans w/one brush. hell, I like a fair bit of dancehall, if not the overtly homophobic/guns’n'gash stuff – more of a roots fan but even there, most of those cats, being Rastas, probably didn’t have the most progressive views on gays or women. Khujo’s line was just shocking b/c I didn’t expect hate to come from a group as soulful as Goodie Mob. I honestly can’t tell if that’s me holding them to a higer or lower standard or neither. and I know we had this huge discussion but, really, about 95% of it had nothing to do w/Khujo. brandon’s point is valid – you have to a draw a line between the artist & the art somewhere, but for me Khujo literally talking about shooting gay activists is on the wrong side of that line. it’s personal decision though, that everyone consuming the art has to make for themself.

    Jun 4th, 2008

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